How to Listen Better as a Leader: Patrick Thean on True Curiosity

Aug 12, 2014

5 min read

Updated: Oct 29

Patrick Thean is a CEO coach and the founder of Rhythm Systems. His napkin reads: To listen better, be truly curious, you just might learn something. Most leadership books say listening is a key trait of good leaders. Very few tell you how to actually listen better. Patrick watched his CEO clients try. They shut off their screens. They told themselves to ask more questions. It rarely stuck. What he found is that true curiosity is the leading indicator of good listening. When you are truly curious, you have no trouble forming questions. The problem hits hardest with the people we know best, partners, teams and family, because we assume we already know what they will say. His fix is a single check before every conversation.

Inspired by Paper Napkin Wisdom Episode 96 with Patrick Thean.

Why trying harder to listen does not work

Many of Patrick's clients read Marshall Goldsmith's What Got You Here Won't Get You There, which names listening as a habit to work on. Then they come to him asking how. They try all kinds of things. Some go into meetings telling themselves they must ask more questions, and it stays an effort.

One client finally asked Patrick for his own approach, because he seemed to be a really good listener. Patrick could not answer at first. He thought hard about it and realized he insists on being curious before he engages with a client. His specialty is leading indicators and KPIs. He has asked clients about KPIs many times. He still goes in wondering what he will learn about them that he has never heard before.

When he started telling clients to be truly curious, instead of telling them to ask more questions, the questions came on their own. I see the same thing in these conversations. I rarely prepare questions. They come from being genuinely curious, and from being willing to learn.

Why we stop listening to the people we know best

Patrick believes the biggest challenge is with people we think we know really well. We assume we know what they will say.

He told a story about his 15-year-old daughter. His wife wanted her to come to a meeting, and she did not want to go. His wife put it down to shyness. Patrick asked his daughter why, in a way that made it clear he was trying to understand rather than judge. Her answer surprised him. The meeting had been sprung on her that day, and it was not on her schedule. She was not refusing because she was shy. She needed better notice. He learned that his daughter is process and plan oriented, while he is more happy-go-lucky.

Partnerships work the same way. Patrick jokes that no one starts a business partnership expecting to find their partner hard to work with in seven years. Yet lots of partnerships break after six, seven or eight years. Part of the reason, he suspects, is that partners lose their curiosity. One says A, then B, and the other assumes they can finish the sentence with C.

How to put yourself in a curious frame of mind

For Patrick it starts with a belief that he is going to learn something. He also links it to humility and to care. If he cares about the person, he wants to know. If he wants to know, he gets curious.

He has only done this actively for about a year, because his clients pushed him to explain it. They said every meeting felt like meeting him for the first time. He asks similar questions from slightly different angles, looking for something he has not heard yet. One client pointed out that when you do something very well, you take it for granted and do not know how you do it.

Now he runs a check before meetings. Do you really care about this person, and do you really want to learn something? If so, get curious. When a miscommunication happens, he asks himself whether he was curious. Usually he was not. He is not curious when he is too busy, in a hurry, or just wants to get it done.

That last point matters for leaders. We want to get to the end so we can move to the next thing. Sometimes you have to slow down a little to understand the person, and then everyone can go much faster.

Effective with people, efficient with process

In a previous company, Patrick interviewed Stephen Covey in New York City around 2002, after 9/11. Covey showed him a watch that flipped open to reveal a compass. His point was that when you work on process, you look at the watch and aim for efficiency. When you work with people, it is about the compass. With people, you want to be effective, not efficient.

Patrick still uses that in planning sessions with clients. Everyone wants to get through the agenda. He reminds them it is better to get a few things done with great alignment than to complete the whole list.

He practices this himself. When we first scheduled our conversation, he moved it off a Monday because his Mondays are meeting after meeting. If he is going to give someone his time, he wants to honor it. I think pace like that is part of being fully present, and being fully present is part of being a great listener.

How to use the curiosity check this week

Patrick's view is that sitting in a listening position is not enough. Your mind will wander. Adopting a curious position, open and genuinely interested in what someone has to say, is different. Do it often enough and it becomes automatic.

To practice this week:

Before each meeting, ask yourself whether you are truly curious. If you are not, slow down before you walk in.
Pick one person you know well, a partner, a manager or someone at home, and ask why about something you think you already understand.
Use his phrasing. I'm trying to understand. I'd like to understand your point of view.
In your next planning session, drop part of the agenda in favor of real alignment on a few items.
After any miscommunication, ask whether you were curious going in.

You just might learn something.

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This conversation is part of the Communication Growth Hub, number 9 in its top 10. It is also in the Leadership Growth Hub, number 8 in its top 10. See every Growth Hub.